tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post6562805728388598268..comments2024-03-28T08:50:57.015+01:00Comments on Beyond Fomalhaut: [BLOG] The Anatomy of a Dungeon MapMelanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-44583996411093925502023-01-27T06:03:02.095+01:002023-01-27T06:03:02.095+01:00You're absolutely right, everyone making maps ...You're absolutely right, everyone making maps is in utter error. That said... there is a more grievous mistake that may or may not have slipped right under your nose.<br /><br />Taking a game that puts physics and natural laws 2nd seat to the utter ridiculousness mechanics that are hit points and armor class, ...that is the height of ignorance.<br /><br />I fully endorse that ignorance and you should too.<br /><br />People playing these fantasy games should just get stupid, the more intellectually impaired the better... the only caveat, remain self-aware and make sure you are in on the joke.<br /><br />Nothing in fantasy RPG's should be taken seriously, EVER. THAT is the CLUE you possibly should be looking for.Jeffrey Boyd Garrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06656144235029783518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-63594974248408021642021-08-24T06:02:39.892+02:002021-08-24T06:02:39.892+02:00I discovered this in Knock #2 and was impressed wi...I discovered this in Knock #2 and was impressed with how easily you conveyed advanced dungeon design concepts to an amateur such as myself. Using Dyson's map as a prop really helped get your points across. Thanks!Thuumhammerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15520788210632985515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-26732562426223828392020-06-07T23:37:33.553+02:002020-06-07T23:37:33.553+02:00Thanks for your useful blog post on Dungeon maps, ...Thanks for your useful blog post on Dungeon maps, Melan.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17722100605312756525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-31890951290635599242020-06-04T04:59:43.959+02:002020-06-04T04:59:43.959+02:00Why are your city maps not as remedial as these pr...Why are your city maps not as remedial as these pre-teen dungeon patch-works? Is it because you have learned something about cities since you were twelve years old.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-34047489664333592612020-06-01T05:09:45.058+02:002020-06-01T05:09:45.058+02:00It would also be fair to say that many of the &quo...It would also be fair to say that many of the "natural" corridors and rooms were not formed by geological processes. They look more like the work of some subterraneum tunnelling creature, like rats of enormous size.<br /><br />Given the proliferation of underground excavations and dungeon complexes, I would hazard that the simple physics of excavation, whether by man or by animal, is different somehow in the D&D world, as compared to ours.<br /><br />That said, there are a few real world cave systems that look useful for dungeoneering, e.g. James Brown in West Virginia. But yes, Robber Baron (Texas) is bordering on fractal maze, as is Mark Twain (Missouri).Garumoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01729693136868673971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-67197208862188214022020-05-31T22:51:21.874+02:002020-05-31T22:51:21.874+02:00I think these are unrelated concerns. In fact, a d...I think these are unrelated concerns. In fact, a dungeon can also be both "realistic" (in the context of a fantastic world of intrigue and adventure) and "fantastic" (<i>even</i> in the context of a fantastic world of intrigue and adventure) at the same time, since these concepts are only opposites for the imbecilic. <br /><br />And that shall be my Kentian wisdom of the day.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-63260391605076226692020-05-31T15:26:33.266+02:002020-05-31T15:26:33.266+02:00I thought this post was really well done so I adde...I thought this post was really well done so I added a link to it in my BEST READS OF THE WEEK! You can check it out at this link if you want: https://bit.ly/36NS2SQDyvershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06032957275132817602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-45735012127506683382020-05-30T10:51:39.834+02:002020-05-30T10:51:39.834+02:00I developed a fondness for Doom Mod Playthroughs a...I developed a fondness for Doom Mod Playthroughs and Romero was without question a DnD player. The difference between early FPS maps and the linear drivel that came to infest the genre is heartwrenching. <br /><br />Thank you for the recommendation. It seems I am doomed to cover all of DnD. I shall add it to the Book of Infinite Reviews. <br /><br />Speaking of which, I don't want to enable Kent since he will berate but refuses to illustrate, ever the weird kind in the corner at a prom. 'I could dance much better then that if I wanted too' mutters he, clasping his bottle of blackbush like a shield. <br /><br />That being said, Kent brings up an intriguing point. A dungeon must make some sort of internal sense so another layer is added. Storerooms, Barracks, Cisterns, Temple etc. etc. The question becomes, can you have a good, jaqueyed large map without it violating this versimilitude principle, or are they utterly unrelated? PrinceofNothinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733680486570025367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-37173417594581574862020-05-29T07:35:56.117+02:002020-05-29T07:35:56.117+02:00Kent, what's the point of your nauseating blab...Kent, what's the point of your nauseating blabber here? Believe it or not, everybody got the oh-so mature and sophisticated message (i.e. all the world's a moron, except you)a long-long time ago, so you might as well STFU. Nothing of value would be lost. Voljahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08826776454392269862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-37331466229088170162020-05-29T02:42:12.917+02:002020-05-29T02:42:12.917+02:00Melan is analysing a twelve year old gamer's n...Melan is analysing a twelve year old gamer's notion of a dungeon. Most so called AD&D gamers, IME, tend to resent the natural growth of knowledge and maturity of normal folk when brought to the game table. They want to re-experience ad nauseam that first twelve year old high.<br /><br />Gygax's and Jaquays' maps are well designed and mock Melan's faux-mathematical 'insight'.<br /><br />(I do not deny that Melan knows far more than all of you other morons)Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-38622425434152236282020-05-28T23:47:34.681+02:002020-05-28T23:47:34.681+02:00Galu: my experience with premade dungeons/adventur...Galu: my experience with premade dungeons/adventures of medium or big size is that the initial preparation takes a lot of time. Once you are confident with it and kick the campaign off, it needs much less preparation between sessions (although it will inspire you to expand it and build upon it, so you'll put in a lot of work anyways :D).Chomyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11511246862191949076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-60600102519343438582020-05-28T09:25:57.642+02:002020-05-28T09:25:57.642+02:00It is more than 2-3 hours, although usually not *m...It is more than 2-3 hours, although usually not *much* more than that. My only secrets are practice, and picking a time when I am particularly inspired. However, there is some extra background work. I tend to carry around a notepad to jot down basic ideas like: <br /><i>"Doriano the Wizard - does business in the name of the cosmic Balance"<br />"Filberto the last thief - he was not hanged due to the coming dooms"<br />"The Cult of the Bat, idol."<br />"Lumps the Innkeeper, private room of card-playing veterans."<br />"Sir Rapax, stone knight and Niabex, Faerie of the Mountains"<br />"The hungry pit wants food in exchange for dungeon key."<br />"The Dark Rangers, robber spies, walk the forest paths."<br />"Flandevole, head of the winesellers - guarded cellars."</i><br />When I do the actual preparation, I build fairly quickly from these idea fragments by tying them together into a common framework, whether it is a situation or a map. There are some pieces which get filtered out (as it happened to some things from the ideas above), some which fit neatly into a concept, some which are changed, and some which are left half-developed, and stay odd during play.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-71412851616799006132020-05-28T07:06:35.250+02:002020-05-28T07:06:35.250+02:00Dear Kent, a genius of your magnitude should have ...Dear Kent, a genius of your magnitude should have realized by now that most people are just not interested in real world architecture or geology while playing games. If they were, they'd drawing up nifty designs on the drawing board or poring over rocks instead. Your wisdom is wasted on the dullards and heathens here. Voljahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08826776454392269862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-38007178144446190262020-05-27T18:48:04.521+02:002020-05-27T18:48:04.521+02:00It's not really individual taste. While I very...It's not really individual taste. While I very rarely use big dungeons, or 30+ page adventures, I admit they are usually more rewarding than the scenarios I can come up with.<br />The real question is: should I make something up in 2-3 hours for next weeks game, or should I start digesting some bigger premade material and have perhaps a monthly game?<br /><br />Just as a general inquiry, as I know you both run and design more complex dungeons than me: how much time do you spend preparing for each session? Can you fit into 2 or 3 hours per week?<br />I am really puzzled how others do it. My experience is that when I buy a premade adventure/dungeon, reading, understanding, and fixing (!) it usually takes more time than what I have. Sometimes I do it though, not because it saves some time for me (it doesn't), but because it improves my game with ideas. Provided it has cool ideas in the first place.<br /><br />(there are exceptions though. A few bigger modules which I used often in the past, and I can run it without preparation. Death on the Reik and Sinister secret... comes to mind)Galuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516935969472344306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-9586620465276876272020-05-27T14:56:18.576+02:002020-05-27T14:56:18.576+02:00Melan, it seems we agree on everything. Just as st...Melan, it seems we agree on everything. Just as statistically identical monsters can feel different in play, thanks to the narration of the referee, so two twenty-by-twenty rooms will be completely different, for the same reason. The map is not territory, and the players' experience of territory is in the communication between referee and players, and where the players' minds fill the gaps. I like pretty maps as much as anybody else, of course, but when it comes to designing "dungeons" that facilitate player exploration and choice, I think starting from a flowchart like what you describe rather than randomly drawn (or randomly rolled) maps is more likely to result in a "good dungeon" from the players' point of view. In other words, I agree with you, and go further, perhaps, in saying that a "good dungeon" is more likely to result from flow design, not doodling rooms and passages.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-85525388763956569632020-05-27T04:00:43.710+02:002020-05-27T04:00:43.710+02:00Why are your city maps not as remedial as these pr...Why are your city maps not as remedial as these pre-teen dungeon patch-works? Is it because you have learned something about cities since you were twelve years old. <br /><br />Gygax's dungeon maps are brilliant, D1-3, G2, excellent. They are NOT indifferent unplanned random scribbles. They are designed. Your notion of good design is crappy, no consequence, computer design not real world architecture.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-66559915563910535522020-05-26T23:48:12.144+02:002020-05-26T23:48:12.144+02:00Dave's Mapper is surprisingly good at the floo...Dave's Mapper is surprisingly good at the floorplan stage. And you can stock the things in a rapid-fire way. That said, I respect individual tastes, even if I believe that some advantages of dungeons really emerge over a certain size, a bit like how a city is not just a very large village, but something functionally different.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-4167001409985880182020-05-26T23:45:38.394+02:002020-05-26T23:45:38.394+02:00I also wrote that rant about the tyranny of fun, w...I also wrote that rant about the tyranny of fun, which people are apparently still salty about 14 years later. That has to count.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-25684639668448848582020-05-26T23:43:19.532+02:002020-05-26T23:43:19.532+02:00I would not divorce aesthetics from function, even...I would not divorce aesthetics from function, even if this post is about the latter. Much of what we do is for aesthetic purposes; two statistically identical monsters can be described so differently that they will seem to be complete opposites, and two functionally identical dungeon sections can result in a very different experience through description.<br /><br />That said, maps which can be clearly described have the advantage of encouraging and facilitating player mapping, which complicated ones (including some of mine) don't. This is an important gameplay choice with tremendous impact! (There is also the option of VTT with a fog of war option, which can be surprisingly effective in simulating in-game vision - but that's another subject.)<br /><br />Finally, let us not mistake the model for the thing being modelled. Models deliberately simplify reality in order to make a point. Yet, as every first-year geography student is taught, "the map is not the territory!"Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-83678471296560422192020-05-26T21:02:28.579+02:002020-05-26T21:02:28.579+02:00Brilliant post Melan. I will be re-reading it man...Brilliant post Melan. I will be re-reading it many times. I love the "accelerators" and "choke points" notions.<br /><br />Thanks.squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-1401406925490264582020-05-25T19:22:13.701+02:002020-05-25T19:22:13.701+02:00In general, the article explains well how a well-d...In general, the article explains well how a well-designed dungeon works. <br /><br />Unfortunately, I never had luck with actually running huge dungeons like dyson's above. What seems to be the sweet spot for me is about 15-20 keyed areas, preferably one level, but with multiple entrances.<br />I have about 2-3 hours to prepare for each game night, so drawing dungeons is usually an activity I have to skip. Most of the time I use flowcharts, or even "d12 interesting loactions ins an otherwise unmappable locale".Galuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516935969472344306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-67732472335644341072020-05-25T17:43:29.174+02:002020-05-25T17:43:29.174+02:00Once again we find different people with incentive...Once again we find different people with incentives that run at cross-purposes, or are at least orthogonal. Nice professional-looking dungeon maps with cross-hatching and everything get views, clicks & sales. Better-looking art gets more attention.<br /><br />I like a nice map myself, but nobody needs to see the contours of the fucking cobblestones while trying to run a game.HDAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506175636615989219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-51938800530580440312020-05-25T13:40:22.327+02:002020-05-25T13:40:22.327+02:00Fortunately for you, all with Echoes and Xyntillan...Fortunately for you, all with Echoes and Xyntillan, this article won't forevermore cement you as "the guy who wrote that dungeon layout article" :PYnas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-16603829421773439412020-05-24T23:47:15.302+02:002020-05-24T23:47:15.302+02:00Symmetry gets not only dull, but has a strong diso...Symmetry gets not only dull, but has a strong disorienting effect. FPS mapping and 3d navigation always make large, symmetrical places into devious mazes.<br /><br />Good point on B1; should have looked that up!<br />Good strategic notes are fairly rare. You can always improvise, but a battle plan combining ease-of-use and smart basic defensive/offensive strategies would be an enjoyable pace of change. I mostly play my NPCs as limited in their capabilities by lack of information, habit, or stupidity, but the occasional foe who is a master of his environment is a very scary opposition! Of all classic modules, thespian-suspect <b>Ravenloft</b> actually has decent tactics outlined for Count Strahd! Rappan Athuk and Tomb of Abysthor had some decent stuff, as well.<br /><br />WRT secret chambers, it really depends on context. I try to build them in a way that makes them possible to be found by paying attention to the environment, without undue pixel bitching - which is the worst. Obviously, man-made buildings make this easier to accomplish than, say, caverns.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6188119851730922397.post-38357151814590603202020-05-24T23:36:24.750+02:002020-05-24T23:36:24.750+02:00I like caves, I grew up around caves. Most caves s...I like caves, I grew up around caves. Most caves suck as dungeons. They are either linear corridors (underground rivers), tiny two-to-five-room affairs, or large but unmappable fractal mazes. Insisting on geological realism in this case is missing the point.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.com